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INTERVIEWS Hicks' World Famous Tamales & More Joe's Hot Tamale Place (The White Front Cafe) Meals on Wheels Hot Tamales & Tacos Tamale Contest (Frank Carlton) --- |
| MEALS
ON WHEELS TAMALES & TACOS
Some say [hot tamales] come from an old word that we use called “cush,” you know. A lot of the Africans would just take meal and season the meal…because a lot of them didn't have enough money to buy meat like they wanted, so they would take the meal and season the meal, and the meal would taste so good it tasted like meat was in it. –Lumumba Ajanaku Originally from Leland, Mississippi, Lumumba Ajanaku learned how to make hot tamales from his mother. He was seventeen years old. She sold them out of their house to make extra money. When Lumumba needed some extra money in his pocket, he decided to do the same. He now has his Meals on Wheels hot tamale stand in Yazoo City, Mississippi. After working at other tamale business around the Delta, Lumumba took the best elements from each and created something he could call his own. Today, he sells tamales full-time and even takes his stand to events around the state. Lumumba believes that Delta tamales developed from the African American food “cush.” Whatever their origins, Lumumba’s hot tamales will likely be around for a long time to come.
--- What follows is a portion of the original interview that has been edited for length. To download the entire transcript in PDF form, please click here. Subject: Lumumba Ajanaku, owner,
Meals on Wheels Tamales & Tacos- --- Amy Evans: Amy Evans for the Southern Foodways Alliance, June 21st, 2005 in Yazoo City, Mississippi. All right, so your name is Ajanaku?...Ajanaku is your last name or first? And you're from Memphis you said originally? I'm from Memphis. When is your birth date? November 22, 1952. And you said you learned how to make hot tamales from your mother? Can you tell me about that a little bit? Yeah. She--she passed August 8th of two—of o-four [2004] and we buried her in Arcola, Mississippi, from Leland, Mississippi, which is where I was born. And from Leland, Mississippi, we buried her in Arcola, Mississippi, on the fourteenth, you know, in Arcola. And she learned me how to make tamales when I was seventeen [years old]. How long had she been making hot tamales? She had been making hot tamales when I was a little boy coming up. So other words, I've been making tamales for around about 35 years…I've been knowing how to make them, but I got out of it for a long time due to the fact that I got a hold to a lot of money. I had a lot of money at one time, you know, and I--I just really went through it and messed up, you know. I mean well--mismanaged it, you know, and so I come back here to the hot tamales for now because I got two--I got two daughters. I got a daughter here and soon--she'll be nine around in August. And I want her to--to get into tamales and learn how to make tamales, you know. Do you know how your mother learned to make tamales? No, I don't know how she learned. I don't know--I don't know if her grandmother learned her how to make tamales or how she learned. But she used to make some good ones. Did she sell them also? Yeah, she sold them…In Leland. Leland, Mississippi. Did she have a stand or did people come to her house? No, she had--she had a house. They had--my mother worked with another man called Ned. He was a cab driver there; she used to work with him selling tamales. She used--they used to make tamales together and sell them. Would he sell them while he was driving a cab? Well he was--at home; she would sell them at his house while he--no, but Leland is a very small town, so the population is not very large there in Leland, and so they--they would make them, you know, at night or in the morning. You know what I'm saying? And then they'd sell them in the daytime…Uh-huh. And at night, too, you know. Do you remember his last name? Is he still around? I can't remember Ned. No; he's--he's passed on…Yeah, he passed on. He was the cab driver, but everybody--everyone in Leland know him, you know. He--he was--he stayed in Leland all his life, yeah; he lived in Leland all his life. --- Did [your mother] have a particular style about making them? Well, she made--back in that time they would take
a meat grinder, and they would take a huge shoulder roast and a
lot of times they would--they wouldn't use Now how--explain to me the white flour. How did she use the white flour? Well, the white flour--she would put her seasoning in it, you know. She never did season the meat. She would always season the--the meal. Okay, but she wouldn't use cornmeal. She would use white flour? No cornmeal--I mean--not flour—corn meal…That's what she would use. She would use cornmeal but he—Martha White corn meal and she--and she would season the meal, you know. She never did season the meat. Really?...Because I know a lot of people season the meat and then use the broth from the meat in [preparing] the meal. Right, right, right. But no, she never did do that. She never did season the meat…She just seasoned the meal. And I found out that's the best way to not to over-season the food…Right; I found out that. You know that is the best way to do it…It's like a lot of people [when] they season fish, they season fish, you know, they put the seasoning on the outside of a fish and then some in the inside--sprinkle the salt on the inside and outside on both sides. And--and--and just put flour--the meal over and just shake it up. But I don't season and do mines like that…It's like you know a lot of people season their fish different. You know, they just put the seasoning on the outside of a fish. I don't do mine like that. I take my seasoning and mix it into the--into the meal, mix all my seasoning into the meal and I--I sprinkle just a small amount in the inside and put each fish—if you do the fillet of catfish, I take it and put it in the bag and my seasoning is already mixed in with my--with my meal, and I close the bag up real good and shake it up real good, you know like you supposed to do it. My grease is already frying real, you know, real hot, and I lay it on the plate, which I do all of it like that. And then I put it into the--into the grease and it comes out seasoned perfect. But if you're seasoning the meal and then season the fish, it's going to be too salty. It's going to be over-seasoned, you know, every time. So it's--it's--it's a remedy that you can use--a method, you know and I--I--you know I always pay close attention. I've got cookbooks that date back to 1714. I got from Nacogdoches, Louisiana-- as a matter of fact, I'd like for you to take a look at it before you leave. Yeah, I'd like to see them. And this tells you how to make hot tamale pies and every--and all of that, and it tells you also how to make punch--vodka punch, whiskey punch, and things like that. So--and then plus, I added what my mother learned me, and then I also worked with--I done worked with Tony in Jackson. Okay. Yeah, I've heard a lot about Tony. Tony’s Tamales in Jackson [Mississippi]…I worked for Tony and sold Tony’s Tamales. Okay. I done sold [Willie] Harmon's Tamales--Hot Tamale Heaven in Greenville on--on North [actually, South] Theo--Theobald Street. You've been in that--been up there? Okay, I sold them for him. And then Miss Missouri [Harris], she's 100 years old almost and it's a place back there [points across the street to Miss Harris’s old tamale stand, which is now abandoned and in disrepair] that used to sell hot tamales…I worked with Miss Missouri [Harris]…So I've--I have four--with my mother's recipe, I have five different recipes. I synthesized and put my recipe together. You understand what I'm saying? Yeah, you took something from everyone…So you don't have to give me your secrets or anything, but can you maybe speak to some of the things that you took from each of the places that you worked--that you worked into your own recipe? Okay, yes, I--well I also worked in [inaudible], too,
with Melvin Smith at Savannah's. It's closed--a bright yellow building
coming out of Jackson on [highway] 49. I worked with Melvin Smith;
he's from--he's from Greenville, Mississippi. His place is closed
now. Okay; I worked for him. I learned a lot from different places.
My mother and them were making them by hands, they were making them
with ground beef, but it's a shoulder roast and not only they were
making the shoulder roast, they was--they were making them with
pork meat and--and I don't care very much for pork. I learned from
Miss Missouri up here So you can decide how fat you want your tamale? Right. And out in California when I was out in California, the Mexicans in California, they were selling hot tamales seven and eight inches long. And I could make them seven and eight inches long, too; it depends on your cylinder. It depends on the--the cylinder, you know. And then it also depends on the corn shucks. See, Wal-Mart has long shucks and they be so long you have to cut them down. You can make two out of one, you know. So I learned from--I learned from Tony about the hot and the mild. See, Tony, he used cayenne pepper, you know, for--just sprinkled it over—it’s—it’s hot. And see, Melvin, used--he used--we used to use hot--red--that cayenne pepper, you know, to sprinkle over top of his but the mild we didn't put none on there. But now, I makes mine different from both of them. I take--I take cayenne pepper, and measure it in a measuring cup. I put half cayenne pepper and I put half of red pepper and mix it in with a bag and a half of masa. That's what I do. And I mix it up real good. I mix it--I mix it and when I get through mixing, I take my water--I take my water and--and--and mix it. I get it all hooked--get it in like it—like it should be and--and I don't do nothing to the meat. I just put the meat in the center of the meal. And you say you do use a machine? Yeah. Where do you have your machine? Okay, I don't have it here with me. A friend--I let a friend of mine use it. Uh-huh; I let a friend of mine use it. Oh okay; I see. So can you tell me a little bit more about working with Missouri Harris down the way there? That seemed like it was a booming business in its day. Do you know how long she was selling tamales? Oh, she sold them for years. She made money there.
She made some money on that corner. See that’s the best—better
corner than this here. You know. I've got a lot of work to do here.
I ain't been here very long. I just--you know, I just went broke,
you know, because of--of some things happened. My little baby was
in a car wreck and--my driveway go all the way over to--to that
fence over there--right here. There's coverings in there, so I got
to cut that grass there and get some dirt to put in there and I've
got to buy it myself. The state just won't do no more, you know.
They put--they put the coverings--I had to help to pay on the coverings
and all the things. You see what I'm saying. And so that's what's
going on there. And as soon as I get my hand on me another nice
piece of money I'm going to fix this here real nice, you know. I
want me another camper. I've been having a camper, and it goes up
and down; I'm going to get me another camper you know and--and fix
my truck up and even get me a new truck where I can hit --- So when you came up--you came up learning how to make tamales from your mom and then have you always been making them either for yourself or for other people ever since? Whatever--I've--yeah, I've always made them at home for me. And I've always--you know every time I get into a jam I always turn back to tamales! [Laughs] Yeah, but I always made tamales and--and I--I just stopped. The money was slow, and I—I was—I was—I was in the fast lane. I was making fast money. Until I got jammed, and I had to come up out of the fast lane. You know, I'm just going to tell you straight up, you know, that's what--that's what happened. --- And so how many days a week or a month are you here in Yazoo [City] and how many are you on the road? The majority of times—if I had my--I'd be on the road on the weekends…I’d do shows--you know the late Tyrone Davis—old O. B. Buchanan or Willie Clayton, which is going to be out here in the O'Reilly's place on the third of July, you know, and if I can--if I can just get--be prepared for to be out there because my license is suspended, and I've got to find me somebody to ride me out there and all that, but that's where I want to go. I want to go out there for that. And--and during the week, like back in they day when I was doing concession stands and going to places, I'd do work on Friday--Thursday, Friday, and Saturday. Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday I'd be home rolling, making up tamales. So I'd take four days off—I took--three days on the road and four days off. That's the way I do it. So if I sent people down here to Yazoo [City], and they came down here during the week mostly you'd be right here? I'd be right here. --- Do you sell a lot of tamales? I sell--I do pretty--I do good. I do good. I do well. I mean--you know I knock on wood [knocks on counter of stand]. I do well. I really do quite well. I really do. I do well. Do you have a lot of local customers or do you have many people coming through that hear about you or--? It's people--you'd be surprised how many people from different states come through here--farther states. I didn't have no idea--from--they were from different places. I mean, there's different places all over the place, you know, and some--you'll come through and you won't see no car here, but you're going to be surprised how many people done already been here and gone…[But it’s] not like it used to be. But when Miss Missouri was open, oh--I mean, traffic--see they bypass--they made the eighteen-wheelers go around. They either got to go the new highway or they’re going through Vicksburg. You understand what I'm saying? So I’ve been getting a lot of my traffic then. I made a lot of money with just a small cart here [taps on the small wooden push-cart standing just outside of his tamale trailer/stand]. I was going to ask you about that. Yeah; I--I just sit right on the corner, like in front of that store [across the street] before I bought this land here and eighteen-wheelers would pull over, you know, and--and half of my business--half of my customers were Europeans. Europeans? Europeans--yes, white--white peoples--what we call white, yeah. [Laughs] Right; yeah but they was--they come through here and--and I mean from all over. I mean I--like someplace like New York, California, Washington, DC—just every--all over the place, you know. So my customers from--mostly from out of town; but I got a lot of customers in town, too, but my customers--mostly from out of town. --- So did you ever take this cart downtown, or did you just sell tamales out here? I just take it--I--I just sell them out here. I just
put them on the back of that antique 1965 Chevrolet truck back there.
It didn't have no cap on it then. I used to sit on the back of that
truck, and I would take it around up by the different stores--different
stores on the highways. I was not just on this side--up on--on 49
up there; the old K-Mart was up there then. And I would go across
and ask the guy if it was okay for me to sit out front with the
camper on the back--this cart on back of the camper, and I had two
pots on two burners--propane burners. That's how we cook it, you
know. And I was cooking mine--I was cooking mines in just-- Yeah, because you don't have any sauce with your tamales. So you steam them instead of simmering them, right? Well I steam them to keep them out of the water and--and I also do prep--I prep mines by--when I put them into the truck, I eliminate the strings [to tie the bundles with] by putting them into a--I put them into aluminum foil, and I try to rub the--roll them up and close the top part off real good and the bottom off real good. I--I put them into the--into a steamer for the steam to come up into--from the bottom where they'll sweat. While they're wrapped in tin foil? While they're wrapped in aluminum foil. And this way--and that way there you--the water won't get--won't take the seasoning out. The seasoning will stay right in--it stays right inside. You understand what I'm saying? So that's why I do it like that, uh-hmm. Okay. So what is it you think about hot tamales in the Delta? Do you have an idea of where that tradition came from? They say--a lot of peoples—it’s just different opinions you know--some of them think they come from--from Africa, some say they come from an old word that we use called “cush,” you know. A lot of the--a lot of the--the Africans would use just--just meal--take meal and season it--just take meal and season the meal, you know what I'm saying because a lot of them didn't have enough money to buy meat--a lot of meat--meat like they wanted, so they would take the meal and season the meal, and the meal would taste so good it tasted like meat was in it, you know. The older--the older womens knowed how to do it, you know, but the young folks don't know anything about that, you know. But anyway I--they say it comes from Mexico; a lot of them say it comes from Mexico, a lot of them say it comes from Texas, a lot of them say that it come in from Africa, and to be honest about it, I don't really know. I--I--I'm pondering now; I'm just thinking that it--it—the hot tamale thing been here for all--all the time. It's been here all the time. If it's--if it's a black thing or a Mexican thing, I don't know exactly which one you know--I could—you could say was first. Or who really was making hot tamales first. I don't--I really don't know. But I know this. Mostly all--all the peoples that I knowed mostly sold tamales, you know, was from African Americans. But now Europeans sell them, too. I know--I know it's a white guy in Greenville that sells tamales on Nelson Street. Oh, okay. At Doe's [Eat Place]? Right. You know him? Yeah, the Signa family? Uh-huh. Because he--he used [parchment] paper with his. He cooks his in paper, you know. But I--I don't know--it's--it's--it's a lot of them that--that sells them--that sell them but there's not as many as--as African Americans and Mexicans. You understand what I'm saying? And they're not a lot of people left here still making them, too. I mean I know that Tony sells to a lot of places, but they're so labor intensive. Do you think there will be a day when people stop wanting to make them? I don't--I don't think that day will come. --- To download the entire transcript in PDF form, please click here.
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Listen
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Lumumba
Ajanaku: Lumumba is my first name, L-u-m-u-m-b-a, Lumumba; the last
name is A-j-a-n-a-k-u.
no ground beef. They would use shoulder roasts. And they would ground
that meat up, you know, to make the tamales. You know, they were
making theirs by hand, you know. See, I'm making mine by machine,
you know what I'm saying. So they're making theirs by--by hand and
so they had to work longer to get more--to get twenty-five, thirty
dozen, you know. So they had to really work to do some rolling.
So--so that's how they--that's how they made theirs. And--and plus,
they also made them with self-rising Martha White flour. And see,
I don't make mines with--with flour; I make mine with masa, you
know…More--more like reinventing the wheel—right, the
Mexican--the m-a-s-a, masa. So I make mines with--with that, you
know, and I make it also with ground beef. 
that--that
she only made hers the way my mother was making hers and that's
by--it's by seasoning the--the masa. Okay. I learned from Melvin
that, you know, just with--with ground beef, if you put water in
the ground beef, it will make--in other words, you can--you eliminate
your meat, you won't have more--nothing but just like meal. He was
making his with meal instead of masa. Okay, meal is harder, and
when you use ground beef, you know if you put water with it you
won't have nothing but a little old line inside of a small ink pen
right in the center with the machine. But now if you make them by
hand and you take--just take--go to a place like Wal-Mart and they
got the five-pound rolls of ground chuck, it's the highest [most
expensive] but it's--you know, that's what I use. And if you take
it by hand and you take the--the ground beef and you take it and
you--and you measure--get a measuring spoon and you put the same
amount in each one. And each one of the tamales should be at least
around three inches and a half to maybe say, three and seven-eighths
inches long--close to four inches. And if you put it in there, if
you--you can measure the amount of meat that you want in each one
of yours. And see I got more--more beef in mines than all the people's
I done worked with. And mines are close to four--mines are just
about between three inches--three inches long--close to four inches--three
and seven-eighths of an inch--close to four inches. And--and I learned
that if you do it with the machine, unless you got a large cylinder
[he is saying syllable] you know because all of the hot tamale machines
have got cylinders [he is saying syllables], you know they--cylinders
I mean--you know—right, they got cylinders; they different
size cylinders--half-inch, an inch, like this--an inch and a half.
the
whole highway like I want to. Uh-huh.
in
a typical pot, but see I don't cook them in no regular pot, now.
So that--that pot right behind you is a steamer, is what that is.
