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INTERVIEWS Hicks' World Famous Tamales & More Joe's Hot Tamale Place (The White Front Cafe) Meals on Wheels Hot Tamales & Tacos Tamale Contest (Frank Carlton) --- |
| JOE'S
HOT TAMALE PLACE a.k.a. THE WHITE FRONT CAFE
Joe barely fixed his breakfast. But he loved making those tamales, though…He loved making tamales, and that's about all he ever cooked. No one in my family really cooked. – Barbara Pope Born in 1924, Joe Pope was the oldest of ten children. His family moved from Alabama to the Rosedale area in the 1930s. Joe held different jobs over the years, but in the 1970s, after a friend shared a recipe with him, he began selling hot tamales. It is said that the friend, John Hooks, got the recipe from a Mexican migrant sometime in the 1930s. A side-job at first, Joe’s Hot Tamale Place, also known as The White Front Café, became so popular that Joe made it a full-time business when he retired from his day job. Joe passed away in December of 2004, but his youngest sister, Barbara Pope, is still making his famous tamales. Barbara worked by her brother’s side for seven years, helping to fill and roll the tamales by hand. Today, Barbara, her sisters, and their ninety-seven year-old mother, Emma, can be found at the White Front, cooking and selling the same hot tamales that Joe made famous.
--- What follows is a portion of the original interview that has been edited for length. To download the entire transcript in PDF form, please click here. Subject: Barbara Pope, owner, Joe’s
Hot Tamale Place, a.k.a. White Front Café- --- Amy Evans: This is Amy Evans for the Southern Foodways Alliance on Thursday, July 21, 2005 and I'm in Rosedale, Mississippi, with Barbara Pope, current proprietor of Joe Pope's White Front Hot Tamales. And Miss Pope, would you mind saying your name and also your birth date, if you don't mind, for the record?
And Joe Pope was your older brother? He was the oldest of ten children. Okay. And he was born in [nineteen] twenty-four, is that right? Nineteen twenty-three. Uh-huh, December the ninth, 1923. He passed in December of last year, right? He passed on December the third. And where do you fit into the family, then? I'm the last. Can you tell me a little bit about your family's background? Are y you all from Rosedale originally or--? My parents were born and reared in Alabama. Most of my sisters and brothers were born in Alabama; only three of us were born in Mississippi. And they came to Mississippi, I think, in the late [nineteen] thirties and we worked--they were farmers. And they worked as farmers up until 1957, I think, and that's when they moved to Rosedale from the farm [just outside of Rosedale]. --- Were they sharecropping or were they independent? They were share---well the older--the first group of people--family members that came here, they were owners. They were landowners. But my father worked with them for--I don't know how many years and then he began to sharecrop. And he did that until he retired in 1957. That's when he left farming. And what were your parents' names? Emma--my mother is Emma, and my father is Jake [Pope]. --- Do you have any memories of eating hot tamales when you were a kid? Nope, never…Never; I don't think I ate a tamale until gosh, I think I was about a teenager…I know I was a teenager the first time I ate a tamale…In the late '50s. --- So tell me about your brother. Joe?..He was quiet, low-key but loved people. He loved meeting people, he loved talking to people, but he did more listening than he did--than talking, you know. And I don't know. To me, everybody that met him liked him. And I think he liked everybody he met. He loved talking about his tamales, and he loved other people praising him about his tamales. How did he get into the tamale business? I guess--I really wasn't here when he got into the business, but he'd been in the business for over thirty years--about thirty-three years or something like that. He had a friend that used to make tamales here some years ago, and he left here. So his father--this man's father--still lived here. So they were talking, and he asked Joe about making tamales, you know, and they would go through the recipe. So, well, he took some of his recipe and then he added extra spices to it, so it wouldn't be just exactly like his. But, you know, the basic--just about the same except the seasoning was different. What was Joe doing before he got into the tamale business? Joe always worked for--as an--as a young man, he used
to work at Dattle's --- Well I read somewhere that was--was John Hooks the name of the man that shared the recipe and something about him getting it actually from a Mexican in the [nineteen] thirties? Uh-hmm. Yeah, right. John Hooks did; there were a lot of workers coming through here in--back in the [nineteen] fifties, there were a lot of Mexicans living around in this area, so I'm sure that's where he got it from--those Mexicans that would come through here, yeah. Do you have any idea or recollection of the--the Mexican immigrants that came through here? Did they ever sell tamales? No, not that I know of…And even when they were living here, I can't remember any of them selling tamales. But now there were quite a few of them here during the [nineteen] fifties and maybe the early [nineteen] sixties, but they all just vanished. I don't know where they went to. [Laughs] They vanished and the hot tamales stayed. Yeah, but they never made them. I guess it was someone that made them out of their home, and they just taught him how to do it. Uh-hmm. Do you have an opinion of how--how it is that the African American community in the Delta has held onto that tradition of tamale making? I really don't know. Yeah, it--because most people think that it's--the restaurant is owned by Spanish when they come here, you know, and then they find out that they are not. But most of the tamales around here are owned by black or white, so there--there are no Mexicans that really make them. And most of people that make them, the Mexicans make theirs a little different from ours. --- So your brother Joe was working at D&L and then--so would you say that he was looking to get into the tamale business to supplement his regular income and--? Well he was work--he was running this place before he started working at D&L, I think. Right, he started this business first because--I think he started--that would be in the early [nineteen] seventies. I think he says he was in like thirty-three, thirty-four years. Okay. So when he opened it, he opened it as
a full-time hot tamale business? --- And then your brother came and opened the--did he call it the White Front initially or--? This was the White Front Cafe…[T]his has always
been the White Front Cafe. Was he the main tamale maker when he first opened? Was he the only one doing it?
Really--other than your brother's? [Laughs] I really haven't, but I--I always said that I was because I--I guess I've never been anywhere where they really sold them, you know--because I do go to Greenville, but when I'm there I'm taking care of business, and I'm trying to rush back. But other of my family members have; they have eaten other's tamales. Plus, a friend of Joe's, he's a Mexican, he went down to Mexico, and he even brought back some Mexican tamales so Joe could see them. But they--they don't have cornmeal, they have flour. And they're very large. But I didn't taste any of those. They cooked them here, though…They were spicy--very spicy. Much more spicier than those [the ones being served today] are. And I also heard somewhere that your brother was making—originally, he was making pork tamales and then changed to beef? I'm not sure. That I don't know. Ever since I've been here, they've been beef, so I'm not sure about the pork. I really don't know. --- How many tamales would you say are made here in a week's time? We do--like this time of year [the summer], it's slow, it's hot. And I don't think too many people eat tamales. So we go--we've cut down to like 160-dozen, per week. In the wintertime we can do like from three to 400-dozen, per week. Wow. So who else works here and who--who has over the years because I know, when I’ve been here before and there have been a whole group of women rolling and--? There were…But only two of us work here now. Plus my family--I have a ninety-seven year-old mother. Your mother is alive? Yes…That was the reason I came back here--to be with her, not knowing that I was going to have to take over the business. [Laughs] So my sisters take turns coming to be with her while I work. So they, in turn, come and help me out here, too. So it's only one that works like part-time. She only works on the days that we roll…Other than that, she doesn't work. --- And was your brother here up until when he passed or was there a time that he--? He did. He worked up until the week of Thanksgiving. The week before Thanksgiving that's when he had the heart attack. Because two of my sisters came in on a Wednesday, and he went and picked them up and that Thursday he had the heart attack. And he lived on two weeks after it. So how did the recipe change hands? Is it something that--that he shared at the very end or is it something that the family knew? Well, I had been working here with him for about seven years because, you know, he was ailing, and I would come in and do as much as I could for him. So it was something that--I had watched him, but I had never done it myself. So it was the--the week before he passed, we were sitting there because this place was the last thing on my mind. And he said to me, "Did you order any meat?" I said, "Huh?" [Laughs] I mean yeah, he said, "Did you order any meat?" I said, "No." I said, "You want me to order meat?" He said, "Yes." I said, "You want me to cook?" He said, "Yes." [Laughs] So another one of my sisters and I were sitting there, and he started going over the recipe. And it really didn't interest me, but she was writing everything down. But I really knew. She thought I wasn't paying any attention, but I knew how to make them. I knew what to put in them. But he--she wrote it down, you know, to make sure. I didn’t--o after he said start cooking, so I started cooking from then, and I've been cooking ever since. Do you enjoy it? I do, I enjoy it. I guess, you know, you enjoy listening
to the people appreciating --- Did your brother ever advertise at all? No, never…never. --- And when you sell tamales to go, people need to bring their own containers, right? If they want the juice…Most people want the juice from the tamales, and they have used it for different things. A lot--some people have told me that they pour it over salad. Some said they dip French bread or Italian bread in it, you know. They just--they like it. They say it has a good taste to it. But I never tasted it. [Laughs] --- And what is your schedule for making the tamales? Do you have a regular one? Like a weekly schedule? Not really. It's--most of the time I cook on Tuesdays and Thursdays--the meat--and we roll the other--in between those days, we roll the tamales. Uh-hmm, we cook--we buy the meat, we cut it ourselves, we ground our own meat, uh-hmm. What time of day do you start when you cook and when you roll and how long does that take? Whenever I get here. [Laughs] Most of the time I try--on the days that I cook I try very hard to get here at ten [in the morning]. But sometimes I have to take care of my mother, if no one is here. So on the days I cook, I don't do anything else but cook that day, anyway. I’ll be in here. Do you have a family of cooks? No. [Laughs] No. No, they do not cook. Did Joe ever cook growing up that you remember? No, Joe never cooked. I don't think Joe hardly made his breakfast.[Laughs] But he loved making those tamales, though…He loved making tamales and that's about all he ever, as I say, cooked. He would get up and he would cook--sometimes he had his breakfast. And no one in my family really cooked. --- And tamales have maintained a--a home and lifestyle and family and building all these years. Did your brother have a family of his own? Yes, he had children. He has three children, uh-hmm. Are they in Rosedale or Mississippi? No…One--he has two in Chicago and one in Washington, but he lives in Suitland, Maryland. And does he have a widow or did she pass? His wife’s been deceased since [nineteen] sixty-seven. What did Joe's kids think about the business? Did they ever work here or have a hand in it at all? No. I don't think they would come back here right now. They’re all working, and I don't think that much money is in the business where they would quit their job. So are you going to stick with it for the long haul? I'm going to try to as long as I can. Uh-hmm. How--what--how have the prices changed over the years, do you know?
Do you know what he was selling them for when he first opened? Was it two? Something like that. Two dollars a dozen? That's a lot of years to go by to only raise four dollars in price. [Laughs] That's what I know. He doesn't--he didn't want to raise them to six dollars--no. His accountant told me [Laughs] when I first took over the business, she--she says, "Barbara, you look at what's going out and what's coming in. “ So, she had a good point because the meat is expensive, and the shucks are really expensive. Did he or have you ever considered going to parchment paper? There are a lot of people in the Delta who roll in a paper. You know, no, because a lot of our customers remain with us because we stayed with the shucks, you know. They said they don't like the paper because the--there's too much grease inside, and they don't even--we roll by hand. They stayed with us because of that because they said they don't like the machine. But it's faster and it's cheaper, but--. In addition to rolling by hand, do you also layer the cornmeal and meat by hand? Uh-hmm, uh-hmm. Yeah, there are not a lot of people that still do that. Nope. Most of them, they love that machine. It's faster, much faster…But I guess sometimes we have to do--do things to satisfy your customers. We have good customers, so I guess if we didn't really have good customers we would change. But I'm sure down the line there will be some changes made, but right now I'm just in the process of learning the business so--. So when you have a day of rolling are there jobs that certain people do each time, or do you kind of rotate responsibilities? Like one person ties and one person--? Um-umm…Everybody. They do their rolling and they do their tying, um-hmm. --- Well what do you think it is about your brother
and the hot tamale Well, besides having good tamales, he was just a nice person. And I think that has a lot to do with staying in business. He had a good personality; he just loved everybody, you know. So I guess that helps a lot, you know, because anybody who walks through that door, if you wanted to sit down and talk to him about the tamales, he was ready. Yeah. I think that helps. He was open, uh-hmm…Well, you know, I really think he had--he had a good business. Because there were still a lot of people around here that knew about his business. And like Joe has worked with Dattle's Department Store, so he knew a lot of people, and a lot of people knew him. So you see people coming in here now, they have children and they were saying, "When we were children, we went to Dattle's and we--Joe waited on us. He'd get out--get the shoes or he would measure, you know for this and that,” you know. So he knew them. Some of them are not here. They've moved out of Rosedale but still they come back and--and they remember him, you know. --- Well, I found--and all the people that I've spoken with--that the tamale recipe is so valued sentimentally and then also economically speaking because there was such an investment made a long time ago--to get the recipe to begin with--and then it stayed in families and has been kept tight…I've talked to a couple people who have sold their recipes to a few people but then found out that--that the people didn't want to spend the time actually making them, so never really came of it. But I wonder if Joe over the years ever sold or gave away his recipe that you know of. I don't know. That, I don't know. I've had several
people ask me for it, but they want to buy it, you know. But I'm
not saying that I won’t right now. [Laughs] So is that something you would consider when the time comes--to sell the recipe and the business? Right…Uh-hmm, yeah. I have offers for the business now…Uh-hmm, because they--I guess they thought that I didn't want to run the business. But I wanted to stay and do it myself for a while. --- Was it important, do you think, for your brother to stay in Rosedale all these years? Was it something that he made a point to do? I don't think he ever wanted to leave…He never talked about leaving. He always--because when we worked on the farm, he never did work on the farm with us. He--well gosh, he got married back in forty-something—1940-something, he got married and he was working at the department store then. So I think he just enjoyed Rosedale. He wouldn’t have never left Rosedale, uh-um, no. --- To download the entire transcript in PDF form, please click here.
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Joe’s Hot Tamale Place
Listen
to this 
Barbara
Pope: [Short laugh] My name is Barbara Pope, and my birth date is
September twenty-fifth…Nineteen forty-four.
Department
Stores here. And then he worked for D&L [an automobile parts
factory] in Cleveland. I think that's where he retired from--D&L,
and then after he retired from D&L he came in and started running
his own business full-time. But he had other people that would work
for him while he worked. I think he worked the nightshift. Well,
he worked the three o'clock shift. So he would work in the daytime
and then during that time they were staying open until two or three
o'clock in the morning. So when he got in at twelve, he would come
up here on weekends and work until two or three o'clock in the morning.
He
was. The only one…I haven't ever tasted another tamale.
what
you do, you know, so it helps a lot. And I appreciate the customers
because he has some devoted customers, and they are still devoted
to me, so that makes a big difference.
Well,
I don’t know. They were five fifty or five dollars up until
last year, and I guess they've been five dollars for like ten or
fifteen years. They were all--they said, "Joe, raise your prices."
"No, no." But it's very expensive to make them.
business
and this place that has lasted here so long?
